Topic: Nintendo Has Created Best Games For Almost Every Genre

@FishyS
Good point about the baby stuff. I meant it in a way that everyone could comprehend it, and not find it offensive. However as to whether you would enjoy it or not, I didn't quite think of it in those terms.

And yeah, creating works for a certain age range is incredibly difficult, much more than just an "adult" work (um...) as it requires you to think like someone about what can be understood and appreciated by those in a certain developmental zone.

And for edge cases, I was trying to think earlier of what would be the best film predicated on number of dogs. Is it Hotel For Dogs? Don Cheadle's finest moment.
Although I think The Karate Dog should get a special mention

@Rambler I don't know about movies, but for games Animal Crossing has quite a few dogs in it. Although, I suppose Wobbledogs might win the award since the genetic mutations leads to near-infinite dog possibilities. You can only have 200 dogs at one time, but it's easy enough to kill off your current dogs and breed new and different ones.

@FishyS
Wobbledogs sounds amazing! I like the idea of dogs entering a pupal state

@Cia
"Nintendo Has Created Best Games For Almost Every Genre"

Um... Pardon.
When talking about Rhythm games, Nintendo still cannot dethrone my number one Rhythm game Dance Dance Revolution by Konami.
Even DDR Mario Mix on GameCube was still very weak compared with DDR Arcade and DDR on PS1, PS2, XBOX, XBOX 360 and Wii.

(replies for clarity since I can't see Anti's post) @FishyS @Rambler

I would argue that a rating or ranking will always be subjective. But you can certainly set parameters. I think we can agree a game for babies isn't inherently better just because more people can play it. But you could well ask someone to make a list of the "best games for babies"

In the same way that you could make a list of the best games of all time and look down it for the first platformer. But you could also make a list of the best platformers of all time. Potentially even a list of the best platformers for fans of platformers. You might on a "best games of all time" rank the original Super Mario Bros high for its huge impact. But then when asked what the best platformers are you might put Super Mario Galaxy up there instead. And platformers for platformers? Maybe then you throw in something like Celeste. They're different questions that might have different answers

(BTW the correct answer for best platformer of all time is clearly Super Mario World)

Also on the topic of ranking things by the quantity of dogs. Where would Who Lets the Dogs out rank? Initially I thought that song would rank high because of the abundance of dogs. But when you really think about it the song has negative dogs, the dogs have been let out. Asking the important questions

@skywake
I would argue that a problem with setting parameters is that the majority of users would not read them. Yes, this is not an inherent problem with the parameters but more one with a chunk of users of best-of lists.
However - they are also necessary, as having any sort of framework to categorise is a necessity. It sets out your stall, ensures validation, and also justifies exclusion.

So for me, yes, you can have a best of all time list: how many on that list depends on how many are the deemed the best. It should be unsorted and each one should have a justification as specified using the stated parameters.
So the best platformers list is different to the most important platformers list.

One of the things that is different from films and books is that games age badly in terms of playability and presentation. There are of course, arguments for content of films and novels doing the same. However I think those arguments could also apply to games, and have done (Barbarian, Vixen in the 80s, GTA now, etc). Films and novels do not really age in their presentation. Yes dead old books might read oddly now, but are still readable; silent films are still works of art. Dead old computer games have poor graphics and controls.
But yet SMB is still great, Strider is still great. Knight Lore, on the other hand, will be a proper wind up to play now.
But that is maybe the main difference with video games - a remake is a great idea, as opposed to a remake of a film.

But with Who Let the Dogs Out - they still own the dogs. Say they had X dogs, and those dogs got let out. They still technically own X dogs. However someone else finds these dogs. They now have x dogs themselves. In one sense they could be lending the dogs out. If you use cuddles from the dogs as a metaphor for return rates on loans, the whole song is about the sub-prime mortgage crisis in America and the 2008 financial crash.
Or it's about dogs, I'm not sure.

@Rambler
I think with most of those "best of all time" lists there are "parameters" that people internalise when they make them. In the same way that someone straight up reviewing something will do.

I for one tend to roll my eyes a bit when people put OoT high up on those sort of lists. A large part of the appeal of that game was the visuals which haven't really aged that well. I'd argue Wind Waker is in every respect better than OoT. But it always finds its way onto those lists because other people consider what it was at the time and what its impact was. But at the same time I'm fine with SMB making those lists because it's a clean aesthetic that still holds up

But in any case, this is all beside the point a bit. The main point I was trying to make is that when people are rating (or ranking) media they are making subjective judgements. When you ask someone what the best action movie of all time is? They'll say either Terminator 2 or be wrong. But the point is they'll give one answer based on some non-scientific internal gut feel. One answer. Not multiple answers and then a tie-breaker scenario where they go to the OFLC or MPAA

(also I'm fairly sure Who Lets the Dogs Out is a sexist slur so doesn't actually contain any dogs at all)

@skywake
Disagree about Wind Waker. It's the worst 3d Zelda imo. Emptiest world out of all of them (for once this stupid "empty world" argument is actually true) and what can you say about a game that's so easy you literally defeat the final boss by using a quick time event 3 times.

To me it was a big disappointment after both OOT and MM. The only redeeming thing were the awesome visuals. Back then, there was nothing else that looked like WW.

To everyone who mentioned Celeste...

No offence, but I bought the game expecting a masterpiece. What I got was a Super Meat Boy level platformer with ugly pixel art and repetitive, constantly frustrating gameplay.

I would rate Celeste 4/10. It's nowhere near the top of 2d platformers.

Celeste has a ton of difficulty and accessibility options; if you were at all interested in revisiting the game, I would suggest tweaking those until the game is no longer frustrating feeling. But, as with all gameplay and art styles, it's personal preference in the end. Celeste is most famous for it's story and characters.

Personally it's not one of my very favorite 2D platformers either, but I can still understand why it's near the top in metacritic; most platformers don't have a particularly good story or good accessibility/difficulty options. I admit I am a fan of the art personally, but not much one can do if you don't like the art style of a game.

The flip side of Celeste would be something like Gris. Not only does it have lush vector art that scales with resolution without the jagged edges of pixels but it's a game that's accessible to the point where you literally can't lose. Once you've started the game, you're going to finish it, and experience a story that's ultimately inscrutable but so packed with metaphor that you're bound to find it relatable.

Is it a better game than Celeste though? For me, yes, but it still depends on what you want. A lot of the people who enjoyed Celeste have criticized Gris for barely being a game at all, since any challenges it poses are essentially illusory and the only skill that's required is persistence. Personally, I'd just take it as more evidence that there are different strokes for different folks.

@Matt_Barber Gris is one of my favorite platformers although not quite at the very top of my list. I gave it a solid 9/10 and I rarely rate games 9 or 10.

Ironically I would say Gris and Celeste have a lot of similarities; Both are very artistic and beautiful games , both with an emphasis on accessibility, and both are very emotional and filled with metaphor, but also very relatable.

Gris is movie-length so I agree people tend to finish it more often. What I think seems to be lost on some people is that Celeste is made for everyone-- the difficulty options go from zero to 200%. You can slow down the game, make stamina infinite, jump for longer, be invincible. They give you incredible granularity which is changeability at any time to make the game be achievable by anyone. Maybe some people don't like 'easy mode' but the game encourages a doable challenge at your own pace, it doesn't want frustration.

As for Gris feeling 'easy', to me it is a platformer with a bit of a visual novel feel which I quite like. I also really enjoy actual visual novels with platforming sections auch as Lost Words.

@FishyS Yeah, eventual success might not be quite so baked into the game design as with Gris, but at least you can find your own level.

I'll certainly take the Celeste approach over the Souls-like one where you've got a single difficulty level and it's down to the player to git gud. Mind you, there are plenty of people who seem to like that - even though the appalling low completion rates for such games puts them squarely in the minority - and that's yet another reason why you can't please everyone.

@FishyS
Oh! I thought it had only the default difficulty. Gonna be trying it again with easier setting then!